Legislature(2003 - 2004)

03/31/2004 01:20 PM House JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 244 - CRIMINAL LAW/SENTENCING/PROBATION/PAROLE                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 2034                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE  announced that the  final order of  business would                                                               
be HOUSE BILL  NO. 244, "An Act relating to  the Code of Criminal                                                               
Procedure;  relating  to   defenses,  affirmative  defenses,  and                                                               
justifications to  certain criminal  acts; relating to  rights of                                                               
prisoners  after arrest;  relating  to  discovery, immunity  from                                                               
prosecution,  notice   of  defenses,  admissibility   of  certain                                                               
evidence, and  right to  representation in  criminal proceedings;                                                               
relating  to  sentencing,  probation, and  discretionary  parole;                                                               
amending Rule 16,  Alaska Rules of Criminal  Procedure, and Rules                                                               
404, 412, 609,  and 803, Alaska Rules of  Evidence; and providing                                                               
for an effective date."  Before the committee was                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
[Before the committee, adopted as a  work draft on 3/19/04, was a                                                               
proposed committee substitute (CS) labeled 04-0033, 1/16/2004.]                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 2092                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JOSHUA FINK, Public Advocate, Anchorage  Office, Office of Public                                                               
Advocacy  (OPA), Department  of  Administration (DOA),  indicated                                                               
that he  would be  focusing on  the sections  of the  proposed CS                                                               
that he  finds the  most problematic.   First are  Sections 15-17                                                               
and 20, the  sections on immunity.  On page  9, lines 29, through                                                               
page  10,  line  1,  it  speaks about  the  judge  informing  the                                                               
prosecution what level  of crime the person  wishes immunity for.                                                               
He said:                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     For this legislation to  be constitutional under [State                                                                  
     v.   Gonzales,  853   P.2d  526   (Alaska  1993)],   an                                                                  
     individual  who has  the privilege,  that would  be the                                                                    
     witness about  to self incriminate, if  they are forced                                                                    
     to testify to a judge or  tell a judge their story back                                                                    
     in chambers,  and the judge  comes out and  tells [the]                                                                    
     prosecution  what  level  of crime,  Gonzales  requires                                                                  
     that that individual with the  privilege be in the same                                                                    
     position they'd be in had  they not opened their mouth.                                                                    
     And if  you think of  it that  way, if the  judge comes                                                                    
     out and  says, "It would  be a high-level  felony; this                                                                    
     person does have a privilege  to not testify," are they                                                                    
     in the same position?   The district attorney now knows                                                                    
     what level of  crime, how serious the  conduct was that                                                                    
     they would  be testifying about; that's  another way to                                                                    
     think about it.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     That is  a link;  the judge providing  the information,                                                                    
     about what level  of crime, is in fact a  link.  And if                                                                    
     you look  at Gonzales,  it talks about  a link  being a                                                                  
     thing   that   would   help   the   police   focus   an                                                                    
     investigation.   It  might help  the district  attorney                                                                    
     decide  whether  to   initiate  prosecution  against  a                                                                    
     witness.     It  might   help  the   district  attorney                                                                    
     determine whether  to offer a  plea bargain, or  how to                                                                    
     interpret evidence,  or how to plan  cross examination,                                                                    
     or develop  trial strategy.   All  of those  things are                                                                    
     links.    And ...  it's  just  implausible to  me,  the                                                                    
     district  attorney's  position  that ...  the  immunity                                                                    
     section  would survive  constitutional scrutiny  by the                                                                    
     [Alaska] Supreme  Court.  I'm  going to use  an example                                                                    
     that I thought was very  insightful, that I [was] given                                                                    
     by  Senator  French just  about  an  hour ago  in  [the                                                                    
     Senate Judiciary Standing Committee].                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 2167                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK continued:                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Assume ...  this is a  murder case, a woman  hears some                                                                    
     shots, watches the front door  of a house, no one comes                                                                    
     in  and  leaves,  the police  arrive,  there  are  four                                                                    
     people in  the house.   The police go in,  one person's                                                                    
     dead - has been shot -  they find a baggie of marijuana                                                                    
     under  ... a  bed, and  they  find a  bloody gun  under                                                                    
     another bed.  There's a  set of fingerprints on the bag                                                                    
     of marijuana  - that's suspect  A.  And then  they find                                                                    
     two sets of fingerprints on  the bloody gun - suspect B                                                                    
     and suspect C.  They  charge suspect A with possession,                                                                    
     they  want  to put  ...  suspects  B  and  C -  or  the                                                                    
     witnesses - on the stand,  and they both take the Fifth                                                                    
     Amendment.  The judge takes  them in chambers.  So what                                                                    
     happens?   One of  them says, "Well,  I shot  the guy."                                                                    
     The other  one says,  "All I did  was throw  the bloody                                                                    
     gun under the  bed."  So the judge comes  out, he says,                                                                    
     "Well, both of  them have a privilege;  suspect B would                                                                    
     be an  unclassified or  class A  felony, and  suspect C                                                                    
     would be a class C [felony]."                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     The  judge has  just  informed them  who committed  the                                                                    
     murder.  That is clearly a  link.  And I would just ask                                                                    
     the committee  to really look  at that provision.   I'm                                                                    
     confident  it   would  not  survive   a  constitutional                                                                    
     challenge, but  it will cost money  ... [and] resources                                                                    
     to get there,  so I believe that  this committee should                                                                    
     follow  the Senate's  lead in  deleting that  provision                                                                    
     from the bill.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA asked whether, in that example, suspects B                                                                  
and C are immune from prosecution under the proposed CS.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK said  they were not, because at that  point the district                                                               
attorney  still  has  the  option  of whether  or  not  to  grant                                                               
immunity;  the  district  attorney  could  decide  not  to  grant                                                               
immunity and instead refocus the investigation on the murder.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 2242                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK then  turned attention to Section 9 of  the proposed CS,                                                               
and  said that  he  understands the  district attorney's  desire,                                                               
when  an individual  has been  drinking -  but is  not above  the                                                               
legal  limit -  and gets  in an  accident and  harms someone,  to                                                               
tighten the  laws up so  as to be able  to charge assault  in the                                                               
third degree.   But  Section 9  goes much  further than  that, he                                                               
opined, because  it takes away  the mental element  of awareness.                                                               
Currently,  in order  to be  charged  with assault  in the  third                                                               
degree, a  person has to  have done something  with recklessness,                                                               
which  involves being  aware of  and  consciously disregarding  a                                                               
substantial and unjustifiable risk.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK pointed out, however,  that Section 9 specifies criminal                                                               
negligence,  which   merely  involves   failing  to   perceive  a                                                               
substantial risk,  and noted that  such could result  from simply                                                               
coming  up to  a  stop sign  that  has black  ice  under a  light                                                               
dusting of snow and sliding  through and hitting someone.  Having                                                               
a  car accident  while  talking on  a cell  phone  or putting  on                                                               
makeup could also  be considered criminal negligence.   Section 9                                                               
proposes to make  all such instances, wherein  an accident occurs                                                               
and someone  gets hurt, assault in  the third degree, which  is a                                                               
felony.   He  said he  did not  believe such  conduct warrants  a                                                               
felony  charge, and  predicted  that the  public  would find  the                                                               
accompanying penalty grossly disproportionate  to the charge.  He                                                               
concluded by  characterizing the  new language being  proposed in                                                               
Section 9 as too broad.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE asked  Mr. Fink  how he  reconciles the  fact that                                                               
under  existing law,  if one  of those  same errors  is made  and                                                               
someone  dies,  then   the  person  making  the   error  is  held                                                               
responsible,  but  if  someone  is merely  badly  injured  -  for                                                               
example,  has to  have a  leg amputated  - then  such is  not the                                                               
case.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FINK offered  that  loss  of life  does  warrant the  charge                                                               
available under  existing law.   He noted that the  definition of                                                               
serious physical  injury currently  includes an injury  caused by                                                               
an act  performed under circumstances  that create  a substantial                                                               
risk  of death,  and  remarked  that any  car  accident could  be                                                               
considered such.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE  indicated  disagreement with  Mr.  Fink's  latter                                                               
remark,  but   suggested  that  perhaps  they   should  focus  on                                                               
clarifying what would  be meant by serious physical  injury as it                                                               
relates to the language in Section 9.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 04-55, SIDE B                                                                                                            
Number 2389                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE  mentioned that  there is  already a  public policy                                                               
that says mental intent will  be disregarded if the circumstances                                                               
involving  a death  involve actions  that are  so careless  as to                                                               
constitute  criminal negligence.    Section 9  proposes the  same                                                               
policy  if the  circumstances result  in serious  physical injury                                                               
such as becoming  paralyzed.  She indicated that  she could agree                                                               
to making the  language narrower with regard to what  is meant by                                                               
serious physical injury.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK offered  his belief that that aspect of  Section 9 needs                                                               
to be  tightened up,  and indicated  that he  would work  on some                                                               
possible  alternatives to  the current  language.   He reiterated                                                               
that  criminal negligence  does  not involve  an  awareness of  a                                                               
substantial  risk and  that the  definition  of serious  physical                                                               
injury could involve something as  simple as running into someone                                                               
riding a bicycle and breaking his/her leg.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE mentioned  that she does have  concern that serious                                                               
physical injury  could involve such a  circumstance, and remarked                                                               
that that issue should be clarified.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GARA  suggested  that rather  than  changing  the                                                               
definition of  serious physical injury,  because it  appears that                                                               
Section 9 is  intended to deal with  alcohol-related crimes, they                                                               
could instead alter  Section 9 so that it  only addresses serious                                                               
physical  injuries that  have been  caused by  those who've  been                                                               
driving  under the  influence  (DUI).   He  asked  whether it  is                                                               
already a crime to injure someone while DUI.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 2200                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK offered  his belief that anytime alcohol  is involved, a                                                               
person will meet the mens rea  of reckless, which would lead to a                                                               
charge of assault in the third degree.  He added:                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     I've  defended people  ... where  there was  no alcohol                                                                    
     involved  where the  state's  charged  assault [in  the                                                                    
     third  degree].   I represented  someone in  the valley                                                                    
     who was driving a friend home,  it was late at night on                                                                    
     a pretty  bad road out  there, [and] they went  off the                                                                    
     road.  The friend hit  their nose and broke their nose.                                                                    
     The  state  charges the  driver  with  assault [in  the                                                                    
     third  degree].   The passenger  said, "We  hit a  rut;                                                                    
     there  was no  alcohol."   He  asked the  state not  to                                                                    
     prosecute the case.   The state refused  [and] went for                                                                    
     it on the  prosecution - again, no alcohol -  and ... I                                                                    
     used the passenger as a witness at trial.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     [The] guy got acquitted,  but the state pursued assault                                                                    
     [in the third  degree] on a reckless  theory because of                                                                    
     serious  physical injury  being  the broken  nose.   So                                                                    
     they're doing this  now.  [Proposed Section  9] is just                                                                    
     going to  make it a  heck of a  lot easier. ...  If you                                                                    
     want to  narrow it to alcohol,  put that in here.   But                                                                    
     right now, this  is going through a stop  sign, this is                                                                    
     [talking] on the cell phone.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA asked:   "Are you saying that if  we limit it                                                               
to  alcohol,  then in  effect  we'll  just  be doing  what  we're                                                               
already doing currently  if it's alcohol-related and  you break a                                                               
nose?  Is that a felony?"                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK responded:                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Well, it  makes it  a lot easier.   I  mean, currently,                                                                    
     yes,  ... if  you're  in an  accident  now and  there's                                                                    
     alcohol  involved,  you're  going to  be  charged  with                                                                    
     assault  [in the  third degree]  and  there's a  really                                                                    
     good  possibility you're  going to  get convicted.   In                                                                    
     all  likelihood you'll  be convicted  - the  jury hears                                                                    
     "alcohol,"  that's going  to  be  reckless.   [Proposed                                                                    
     Section  9] just  makes it  a lot  easier to  get those                                                                    
     convictions.  So  ... I think the law's fine  as it is,                                                                    
     but  if you  wanted to  pass  this but  add an  alcohol                                                                    
     requirement,  you would  make  it easier  to get  those                                                                    
     assault  [in the  third degree]  charges where  alcohol                                                                    
     was  involved and  there's an  accident but  it's below                                                                    
     the level of a [DUI].                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   OGG   suggested    looking   to   the   workers'                                                               
compensation  statutes  and  making   the  language  in  proposed                                                               
Section   9  dependant   on  the   percentage  of   loss  someone                                                               
experiences due to a serious physical injury.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GARA,  in  response   to  a  question,  suggested                                                               
perhaps  using  the  phrase  found  in  AS  [09.17.010],  "severe                                                               
permanent physical impairment or severe disfigurement".                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 2084                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SUSAN  A.  PARKES,  Deputy   Attorney  General,  Central  Office,                                                               
Criminal  Division,  Department  of  Law (DOL),  noted  that  the                                                               
definition  of  serious  physical  injury -  AS  11.81.900(55)  -                                                               
contains two provisions:                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
          (A) physical injury caused by an act performed                                                                        
     under circumstances  that create a substantial  risk of                                                                    
     death; or                                                                                                                  
          (B) physical injury that causes serious and                                                                           
     protracted  disfigurement,   protracted  impairment  of                                                                    
     health, protracted  loss or impairment of  the function                                                                    
     of  a   body  member  or  organ,   or  that  unlawfully                                                                    
     terminates a pregnancy;                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  PARKES  noted that  "physical  injury"  is also  defined  in                                                               
statute.   She added that  her experience  has been that  a clean                                                               
broken  arm or  leg  doesn't  necessarily rise  to  the level  of                                                               
serious physical injury,  though it does depend  on whether there                                                               
has been protracted impairment of health.  She went on to say:                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     I'd  like  to  also  address this  idea  that  criminal                                                                    
     negligence  is somehow  not  a  very heightened  mental                                                                    
     state.  As has been  referenced, we have a homicide for                                                                    
     criminal  negligence, we  have [assault  in the  fourth                                                                    
     degree]  that uses  criminal negligence  as the  mental                                                                    
     state,  and  what  it  is,  it's  got  to  be  a  gross                                                                    
     deviation from  the standard of care  that a reasonable                                                                    
     person would  observe.  That's what  the definition is.                                                                    
     Although alcohol-related  cases are  ... what  cause us                                                                    
     to see  a hole in  the statutes, there's a  loophole in                                                                    
     the law right  now.  If you,  with criminal negligence,                                                                    
     cause  physical   injury  by   means  of   a  dangerous                                                                    
     instrument,  you're guilty  of  assault  in the  fourth                                                                    
     degree.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 2027                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     There  is  no  provision   that  covers  causing,  with                                                                    
     criminal negligence,  serious physical injury  by means                                                                    
     of  a dangerous  instrument.   So, if  you do  the same                                                                    
     conduct that  you could be  prosecuted in  the [assault                                                                    
     in  the fourth  degree] statute  for but  cause serious                                                                    
     physical injury,  there's nothing that  recognizes that                                                                    
     heightened  level of  damage as  is  referenced in  the                                                                    
     criminally   negligent   homicide  [statute];   there's                                                                    
     nothing that recognizes that, it's  still going to just                                                                    
     be a misdemeanor.   And that appears to be  just a hole                                                                    
     in the statutes.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. PARKES continued:                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     And I'd  like to  point out,  actually, people  ... are                                                                    
     charged with  reckless conduct when [they  have a blood                                                                    
     alcohol concentration (BAC) of  .08] or over; we've got                                                                    
     statutes   that   cover   when   people   are   legally                                                                    
     intoxicated - they  are per se reckless -  and they are                                                                    
     charged  under the  statutes,  under the  recklessness.                                                                    
     And  right now  I  would  point out  that  there is  an                                                                    
     [assault  in  the  third  degree],   that  if  you  are                                                                    
     reckless and  cause simply physical injury  by means of                                                                    
     a dangerous instrument, that's a felony.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     So,  yes,  if  you're  drunk  and  you  get  in  a  car                                                                    
     collision and  your buddy busts  his nose and  it's not                                                                    
     serious physical injury, it's still  a felony.  So it's                                                                    
     a felony  to cause  physical injury  if you're  a drunk                                                                    
     driver.     So   I   just  want   to   clear  up   that                                                                    
     misconception.   But there's no statute  right now that                                                                    
     covers  criminally negligent  conduct with  a dangerous                                                                    
     instrument that causes serious  physical injury, and we                                                                    
     need that.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA  opined that unless paragraph  (4) of Section                                                               
9 is  limited to  intoxication-related crimes,  it will  say that                                                               
with essentially just a tad  more than just regular negligence, a                                                               
car accident case  becomes a felony.  He added  that he would not                                                               
be  comfortable   with  that;  "I   don't  think  we   should  be                                                               
considering  people  who  make accidents,  even  dumb  accidents,                                                               
felons.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1871                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. PARKES,  in response to  a question, relayed  that currently,                                                               
if a person, with criminal  negligence, blows through a stop sign                                                               
and puts  someone in coma, the  highest level of crime  that that                                                               
person could be charged with would  only be assault in the fourth                                                               
degree,  which is  a  class  A misdemeanor,  but  if someone  was                                                               
killed  under  the  same  circumstances,   the  charge  could  be                                                               
homicide, which is a class B felony.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA said  he could guarantee, however,  that if a                                                               
person sped through  a stop sign and put someone  in a coma, that                                                               
person would  be charged  with "a  recklessness crime,"  and that                                                               
would result  in a  felony.   The jury is  going to  consider the                                                               
extent of  the injury even if  it's not in the  jury instruction,                                                               
he predicted.   He remarked, though, that he could  agree to, "if                                                               
we want to do a coma definition  or some sort of similar level of                                                               
injury," making that a felony.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK suggested  limiting proposed paragraph (4)  of Section 9                                                               
so that it  applies only to serious physical  injuries as defined                                                               
in  AS  11.81.900(55)(B).   Currently  under  paragraph  (4),  he                                                               
opined, a  broken finger could  result in a felony  being charged                                                               
because serious physical injury is  defined as one of two things,                                                               
the first  being any physical  injury caused by an  act performed                                                               
under circumstances that create a  substantial risk of death, and                                                               
anytime  someone is  in "a  couple-thousand-pound vehicle"  going                                                               
down the road, it constitutes  a circumstance that could create a                                                               
substantial risk  of death.   Another alternative,  he suggested,                                                               
if  the  goal  is  to  get  at  circumstances  involving  alcohol                                                               
consumption, would be  to alter page 6, line 24,  to say in part,                                                               
"after the  consumption of alcohol  and with  criminal negligence                                                               
causes".  Doing  such would tie the alcohol  consumption with the                                                               
criminal negligence.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 1742                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK next  directed attention to the  provision pertaining to                                                               
violation of a custodian's duty - Section 12.  He said:                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     I  would   just  like  the  committee   to  know,  most                                                                    
     custodians take  their duties very, very  seriously.  I                                                                    
     think  the committee  was  correct  in identifying  the                                                                    
     larger problems [as] far too  many people are put under                                                                    
     a  third-party restriction  -  which  costs them  their                                                                    
     jobs,  keeps  them   incarcerated  for,  oftentimes,  a                                                                    
     significant period  of time  before their  "Rule 45ers"                                                                    
     (ph) seek trial-right routes -  and they might even ...                                                                    
     then be  found innocent  or acquitted  at a  trial, and                                                                    
     yet, effectively,  they've served  a sentence  and been                                                                    
     presumed  guilty,  really,  because they  can't  get  a                                                                    
     third-party  [custodian].   I think  that's the  bigger                                                                    
     problem; ...  I'd love if  the committee  would address                                                                    
     the third-party custodian problem.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Having  said that,  ... I  would  just like  to say,  I                                                                    
     think  the  current  contempt  statute  is  sufficient.                                                                    
     Right  now   it  is   difficult  to   get  [third-party                                                                    
     custodians].   You almost can't  work; the  judge tells                                                                    
     you about  the contempt possibility, that  you could be                                                                    
     looking at  ... six months  in jail [and a]  $300 fine.                                                                    
     You know,  it's something oftentimes people  are on the                                                                    
     fence [about],  and you can't  have a  criminal record,                                                                    
     you have to  have the time to do it,  and I'm concerned                                                                    
     that this provision ... is  really put in there to kind                                                                    
     of  bully potential  [third-party  custodians] so  that                                                                    
     they can be frightened more.   I mean, if you're on the                                                                    
     fence  and then  the [district  attorney] says,  "Well,                                                                    
     you know  you could go  to jail for  a year and  have a                                                                    
     $10,000  fine if  you don't  ...  report this  person,"                                                                    
     well you've just upped the stakes significantly.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     And I  think at  the margins you've  made it  that much                                                                    
     more difficult for [third-party  candidates] to get ...                                                                    
     decent people without criminal  histories that are kind                                                                    
     of on the  fence; well, you've just kind  of given them                                                                    
     a little extra  push on getting off that  fence ... [so                                                                    
     they]  don't  agree  to  do  that.   And  I  think  the                                                                    
     upshot's going  to be [that]  more people stay  in jail                                                                    
     for  longer  periods of  time  because  they can't  get                                                                    
     [third-party custodians].   I think our  statutes, with                                                                    
     contempt,  are   adequate  now.    In   the  event  the                                                                    
     committee was going to go  forward with this section, I                                                                    
     would ask  them to limit  it to a class  B misdemeanor,                                                                    
     which doubles the current  penalties under the contempt                                                                    
     law.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 1608                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK continued:                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     And  I'd  ask  that   the  committee  consider  putting                                                                    
     "knowingly" on  line 20  between "person"  and "fails".                                                                    
     That's because  ... right now,  if there's no  mens rea                                                                    
     or culpable state listed, it's  knowingly as to conduct                                                                    
     [and] reckless  as to  circumstance, and  I'm concerned                                                                    
     that ... [if  a young person] goes out the  window at 3                                                                    
     in the morning  [and the] parents don't  catch it until                                                                    
     [later in]  the morning, you could  potentially make an                                                                    
     argument  [that]   they  were   reckless  as   to  that                                                                    
     circumstance.    You  could  ...  threaten  prosecution                                                                    
     where there really  was no bad behavior on  the part of                                                                    
     the [third-party custodian].   And so I  would ask that                                                                    
     you put "knowingly"  in there to at  least indicate the                                                                    
     culpable  state to  that -  the knowing  failure, which                                                                    
     means you have to know about the violation.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     And  again,  I  think  limiting [it]  to  [a]  class  B                                                                    
     misdemeanor,  which  doubles   the  current  penalties,                                                                    
     would be sufficient but not  as onerous as -- you know,                                                                    
     it's scary  when someone's there,  never been  to court                                                                    
     before,    offers   themselves    as   a    third-party                                                                    
     [custodian],  when the  judge then  says, "You  realize                                                                    
     you could go to jail for  a year and pay $10,000 if you                                                                    
     don't report  this person."   It's just a  scary thing,                                                                    
     and   it's  going   to   discourage  ...   [third-party                                                                    
     custodians], and the  upshot is, there are  going to be                                                                    
     fewer [third-party custodians].                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE relayed  that the issue of a lack  of mental intent                                                               
had been noted at a prior hearing on the bill.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. PARKES  clarified that although  a class A  misdemeanor would                                                               
double the  current penalty, a  class B misdemeanor  would reduce                                                               
that penalty  by half.   She  noted that  Section 12  proposes to                                                               
charge  a class  A misdemeanor  when  the failure  pertains to  a                                                               
felon, and a  class B misdemeanor when the failure  pertains to a                                                               
misdemeanant.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  mentioned that  he  has  long been  in                                                               
favor  of creating  a class  C  misdemeanor, which  would have  a                                                               
maximum  jail sentence  of 30  days, and  suggested that  perhaps                                                               
Section 12 ought to be altered to that effect.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 1502                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. PARKES said she did not  want to reduce the penalty that low.                                                               
She  indicated   that  the   differentiation  in   the  penalties                                                               
currently  provided for  in Section  12 adequately  addresses the                                                               
differences in the  seriousness of the responsibility  of being a                                                               
third-party custodian for a felon as  compared to being one for a                                                               
misdemeanant.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG remarked:                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     On a policy basis and  a constitutional basis, there is                                                                    
     a right to bail.  And all  we want, as a society, is to                                                                    
     be sure  that they  obey the  conditions and  that they                                                                    
     don't flee.  And assume  for the purposes of discussion                                                                    
     that  there   is  a  problem  in   finding  third-party                                                                    
     custodians, how do we solve that problem?                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS.  PARKES said  she  does  not know  the  answer  to that,  but                                                               
agrees, to an extent, that  third-party requirements may be being                                                               
used too often  by magistrates and judges.  "I  think it's become                                                               
very routine  to require it,  and maybe  that needs to  be looked                                                               
at," she  remarked, adding, "My  view is, though, anyone  who ...                                                               
isn't  planning   to  neglect  their  duties   as  a  third-party                                                               
[custodian] is  not going  to be  put off  by being  told there's                                                               
potentially  criminal liability,  which  they're  already told  -                                                               
this really doesn't change that ... in any way."                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG said  he'd  like to  see  both sides  -                                                               
prosecutors and defense attorneys -  come up with some guidelines                                                               
regarding when  a judge or  a magistrate  is to appoint  a third-                                                               
party custodian.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. PARKES, noting that there  are provisions in the bail statute                                                               
that  speak  to when  the  courts  should appoint  a  third-party                                                               
custodian, said she'd be happy to  research that issue at a later                                                               
time to see  whether that statute is being  applied properly, but                                                               
doesn't anticipate  anything to that  effect being done  with the                                                               
current bill.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  suggested that  they should  either fix                                                               
Section 12 to  everyone's satisfaction or take  it out altogether                                                               
until more work is done on the  issue.  He asked Ms. Parkes which                                                               
option she prefers.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS. PARKES remarked that she  does not accept the assumption that                                                               
Section 12, as  written, will discourage people  from agreeing to                                                               
be third-party custodians.  Violation  of a custodian's duties is                                                               
already  a criminal  offense; Section  12 will  merely provide  a                                                               
cleaner  way to  prosecute  it and  is not  a  major change,  she                                                               
opined.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1291                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA commented:                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     The  reality  as  I  see  it is,  this  crime  bill  is                                                                    
     probably going to move.  The  reality as a I see it is,                                                                    
     if next year  somebody comes up with a bill  to make it                                                                    
     harder  to impose  third-party custodianship,  it's not                                                                    
     going  to pass.   So  if  we're going  to address  that                                                                    
     issue in a  way that's acceptable to  everybody, now is                                                                    
     the time to do it. ... I'm  not able to do this, [so] I                                                                    
     would entertain any  language that any of  ... you feel                                                                    
     is reasonable  to put some limits  on the circumstances                                                                    
     where third-party custodianship  is required by judges.                                                                    
     This committee can't stop  the judges from interpreting                                                                    
     the current  law the way  they are interpreting  it, so                                                                    
     that's not going  to happen.  We need  more guidance in                                                                    
     the statute, apparently.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     And I would  say that if we make it  very difficult for                                                                    
     judges  to   impose  third-party   custodianship,  that                                                                    
     amendment's not  going to pass,  but if we can  come up                                                                    
     with  some limited  way just  to make  [it] more  clear                                                                    
     that third-party  custodianships should not  be granted                                                                    
     so reflexively,  I think that  probably will pass.   So                                                                    
     if anybody can  come up with any  suggested language to                                                                    
     the  current third-party  custodianship statute  on the                                                                    
     standards  applicable to  when you  require third-party                                                                    
     custodianship, ...  I will try and  offer an amendment.                                                                    
     ...                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE  suggested to Mr.  Fink that he check  with someone                                                               
with  the  Alaska  Superior Court  because,  according  to  prior                                                               
testimony  by Ms.  Brink,  it appears  that  the Alaska  Superior                                                               
Court applies  the current statutory standards  more consistently                                                               
than do magistrates.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG asked Ms. Parkes to do what she could                                                                  
to help solve the problem.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK relayed that he would work on that issue.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 1147                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK next turned attention to Section 5 of the proposed CS.                                                                 
He said:                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Section 5 ...  makes it a felony to  provide alcohol to                                                                    
     a minor in a local option  area. ... I almost find this                                                                    
     the  most outrageous  section  in the  bill.   This  is                                                                    
     going to  "felonize" conduct that  I don't  believe the                                                                    
     public believes is felony conduct.   It's also going to                                                                    
     grossly   discriminate   between    rural   and   urban                                                                    
     residents.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK offered the following scenarios:                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     [If you  are] 22-years-old  and you give  your 20-year-                                                                    
     old  brother a  beer in  Anchorage, if  it's ever  even                                                                    
     prosecuted  you  may get  a  fine  and maybe  suspended                                                                    
     time.  If  you're in the Bush, you've just  made that a                                                                    
     felony.   That  means that  22-year-old can't  join the                                                                    
     ... the military,  now is a felon for  the same conduct                                                                    
     that in  the urban areas would  be a slap on  the hand.                                                                    
     I think this section just goes  simply too far.  I have                                                                    
     spoken with  the [Alaska Native Justice  Center, Inc.],                                                                    
     ... I  know they're adamantly  opposed to this  from my                                                                    
     conversations  with   them.  ...   You're  "felonizing"                                                                    
     conduct in  the Bush that's  not a felony in  the urban                                                                    
     areas, and  I just  think there's  a real  problem with                                                                    
     this.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE noted  that that  point was  raised by  the Public                                                               
Defender Agency during  a prior hearing on the proposed  CS.  She                                                               
pointed out  that currently  such behavior is  already a  class A                                                               
misdemeanor, and  so the penalty  can't be raised  without moving                                                               
into the  felony arena.   She also noted  that just by  virtue of                                                               
allowing local  option areas to  begin with, similar  behavior is                                                               
treated  differently  in  urban  and rural  areas:    Someone  in                                                               
Anchorage can go  to a liquor store and buy  alcohol, but someone                                                               
in a  dry or  damp village  cannot do the  same thing  without it                                                               
being  considered  criminal  conduct  and thus  he/she  would  be                                                               
subject to criminal  penalties.  She opined that  although it's a                                                               
good argument  to say  that a felony  conviction is  with someone                                                               
forever, Section 5 sends the  message that in local option areas,                                                               
such conduct  does rise to  a different  level because of  all of                                                               
the  problems that  come  about  due to  alcohol  abuse in  those                                                               
areas.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. PARKES relayed  that [the DOL] contacted the  Bush caucus and                                                               
spoke  with Representative  Kapsner,  the chair,  on this  issue;                                                               
Representative  Kapsner expressed  concern  about the  heightened                                                               
penalties  but supports  them  overall because  if  a village  or                                                               
community made the  decision to go dry or damp,  it is because of                                                               
the recognition  that alcohol has  been such a social  scourge on                                                               
that community or village.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG suggested as  a solution adding language                                                               
to the  effect that the behavior  referred to in Section  5 would                                                               
be  felony in  a  location that  had  gone dry  or  damp if  that                                                               
locality voted to make the behavior a felony.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FINK   expressed  approval  of   Representative  Gruenberg's                                                               
suggestion.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0821                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FINK then  turned attention  to Sections  13 and  14 of  the                                                               
proposed CS.  He said:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     On Section 13 I would  just indicate ... [that] you are                                                                    
     disenfranchising an entire group  of the citizenry from                                                                    
     self defense. ...  Let's say you're a  prostitute - and                                                                    
     we just  had a trial  in Anchorage  on this -  and your                                                                    
     john  attacks you,  under this  language  you lose  the                                                                    
     right to self defense. ...  [let's say you're] in a bar                                                                    
     and you're  20-years-old and you  have a fake ID  - and                                                                    
     we  just had  a tragedy  ...  last week  ... with  some                                                                    
     rough conduct  in a bar  that ... potentially led  to a                                                                    
     death  -  ... if  you're  in  a  bar underage  ...  and                                                                    
     someone  attacks you,  ... you  can't defend  yourself.                                                                    
     So I  would just suggest  to the committee  [that] this                                                                    
     language  ... way  overreaches ....   And  I understand                                                                    
     what the  [district attorney] is  trying to do,  but it                                                                    
     needs some significant work.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA asked why the  latter example would result in                                                               
not being able to defend oneself.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK said it is because  the person has a criminal objective,                                                               
since being  in a bar while  underage is illegal.   He noted that                                                               
the language  in the  bill says, "acting  alone or  with others",                                                               
and  so it  wouldn't matter  that  the person  is in  the bar  by                                                               
himself/herself.    He mentioned  that  the  Senate altered  this                                                               
provision in the  Senate version of the bill, and  thus took care                                                               
of  his  concern; he  suggested  that  the committee  follow  the                                                               
Senate's lead on this issue and adopt a similar amendment.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.  PARKES  relayed that  a  similar  amendment is  in  members'                                                               
packets  and that  it proposes  to require  that the  person come                                                               
armed with  a deadly weapon  and that felonious  criminal conduct                                                               
or a felonious drug transaction take place.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0656                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK, in closing, offered the following regarding HB 244:                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     I understand that we want to  ... be safe in our homes,                                                                    
     safe  in  public,  but  I  would  suggest  [that]  this                                                                    
     legislation  last   year  grossly  overreached.     And                                                                    
     because  of   outcries,  particularly  on   [the]  self                                                                    
     defense [provisions], it  was held on to  and it's back                                                                    
     before the  legislature now and  it's in  better shape.                                                                    
     However, while we  want to be safe in our  homes and in                                                                    
     public, we also  don't want to live in  a police state.                                                                    
     I would  suggest [that]  in certain  [provisions], this                                                                    
     bill   criminalizes   conduct   in  a   way   that   is                                                                    
     disproportionate  to  the   conduct,  and  criminalizes                                                                    
     conduct [that] the public doesn't consider criminal.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     So while  ... the district  attorney might say,  or law                                                                    
     enforcement might say [that]  this is an important tool                                                                    
     for  us,  that,  really,  said another  way,  ...  will                                                                    
     lessen the level  of civil rights, lessen  the level of                                                                    
     protection for our citizenry.   So from a philosophical                                                                    
     perspective, I understand what  the committee is trying                                                                    
     to do and what the  [district attorney] wants, but just                                                                    
     keep in mind ... [that] this  is a free society, and to                                                                    
     the extent [that] you give  law enforcement more tools,                                                                    
     you  are  diminishing   citizenry's  rights  and  legal                                                                    
     protections.  And with that  I would just thank you for                                                                    
     allowing me to testify.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE asked  that forthcoming  amendments be  in writing                                                               
and be made available to  members before the bill's next hearing.                                                               
She  indicated  that  a representative  from  the  Department  of                                                               
Public Safety has  been on line and available  for questions, and                                                               
that  a  representative from  the  Public  Defender Agency  might                                                               
provide possible amendments at the bill's next hearing.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
[HB 244 was held over.]                                                                                                         

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